Joel Trammell is the Founder of the Texas CEO Magazine and the Co-founder of American CEO, a company that provides educational resources for chief executive officers. He is a successful entrepreneur who has founded four businesses and served as CEO of seven others – from start-ups to public firms valued at $1 billion.
As an author and educator, Joel has extensive experience teaching CEO Master Classes and Managerial Excellence Courses. He regularly speaks at conferences and nationwide events and has contributed to Entrepreneur, Forbes, and Inc.com. He has served on the boards of public, private, and nonprofit organizations and is now on a mission to teach aspiring and established CEOs how to effectively carry out their position.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- How Joel Trammell helps CEOs achieve success
- The two triangles of tension in every business, according to Joel
- Joel discusses how a CEO should balance the interests of various stakeholders
- Tips for building solid executive teams from scratch
- What being an executive means to Joel
- Is strategic thinking teachable?
- How do you hire when it’s not your specialty?
In this episode…
CEOs face difficult situations and must make tough decisions. They are frequently caught between employees, shareholders, and clients who have very different interests, wants, and needs. Given the lens of these various parties, how does a CEO maintain balance and fairness in determining which one has supremacy?
Joel Trammell says that a good CEO should be able to effectively identify and manage the two triangles of tension in every business. The first triangle is the external tension – the wants and needs of employees, customers, and shareholders. The second triangle represents the internal tension between the sales group, product group, and marketing group. The role of a CEO is to manage the white space, communication, and coordination of those six fundamental areas simultaneously.
In this episode of The Lazy CEO Podcast, Jim Schleckser sits down with Joel Trammell, the Founder of Texas CEO Magazine and the Co-founder of American CEO. They talk about the challenges CEOs face every day when making crucial decisions for their businesses. Joel also talks about what being an executive means and why hiring should be a continuous process when building a successful company.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Joel Trammell on LinkedIn
- Joel Trammell
- The CEO Tightrope by Joel Trammell
- Texas CEO Magazine
- American CEO on LinkedIn
- American CEO
- Jim Schleckser on LinkedIn
- Inc. CEO Project
- Great Ceos Are Lazy: How Exceptional Ceos Do More in Less Time by Jim Schleckser
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by The CEO Project.
The CEO Project is a business advisory group that brings high-caliber, accomplished CEOs together.
Our team of skilled advisors is comprised of current and former CEOs who have run both public and private sector companies across multiple industries.
With our experience and expertise, we guide hundreds of high-performing CEOs through a disciplined approach that resolves constraints and improves critical decisions.
The CEO Project has helped high-performing, large enterprise CEOs with annual revenues ranging from $20M to over $2 billion to drive growth and achieve optimal outcomes.
If you are an experienced CEO looking to grow your company, visit www.theCEOProject.com.
Welcome to The Lazy CEO Podcast where Jim Schleckser, author of Great CEOs are Lazy and Founder of The CEO Project, features compelling experts and topics for CEOs of mid to large-sized companies. Now, let’s get started with the show.
Jim Schleckser 0:27
This podcast is brought to you by The CEO Project. At The CEO Project, we work with CEOs to help them grow their business, and our members represent billions of dollars of revenue and profit. And frankly, amongst all of us, we’ve probably made every mistake in the book, including some you haven’t made yet. So if you want to learn from the experience of a bunch of really seasoned CEOs, we’re a great place to hang out. In this podcast, you’re going to hear some of those ideas, concepts, and things that are just going to help you on your journey. If you want to find out more, reach out to us at theceoproject.com. Or you can contact me personally at [email protected] happy listening.
Welcome, everybody to The Lazy CEO Podcast. We have a great guest. Today we have Joel Trammell, somebody I’ve known for years. Joel is a serial entrepreneur, he’s had successes and failures and crazy stories, and is now mostly helping other CEOs become even better CEOs than they are when they show up in front of them, which is very aligned to our mission. He started out as a nuclear Submariner, and quickly figured out that he wanted to become an entrepreneur. And as a series of businesses, if you looked at his LinkedIn, I think he has, you know, 20 or 30 experiences. So incredible depth of exposure, and investing and building companies and selling companies and, and generally running really excellent companies as well. And hopefully, Joel is going to share some of what he’s learned over time. So welcome, Joel, really appreciate having you.
Joel Trammell 0:57
Oh, great to be with you. Always good to talk to you, Jim.
Jim Schleckser 0:59
Yeah, we’re gonna have some fun, so appreciate it. So let’s just start with, let’s just start with what are you doing? Now, I talked a little bit about helping CEOs and education, why don’t you just talk a little bit about what you’re doing now. And then we’ll dig into some topics after we get that out?
Joel Trammell 1:16
Sure, you know, I spend most of my time these days trying, like you said, trying to help CEOs. You know, what really frustrated me in my career was seeing businesses that shouldn’t be home runs that turn into singles or strikeouts, because leadership just isn’t have the capabilities to drive to the outcome. So, so I, you know, I kind of tell people, I’m looking for CEOs wanting to hit the home run. And, you know, I’ve been fortunate enough in my career to do that a few times. And I think I’ve learned something about doing it. And, and most people can, can easily make the transition, I think, if they had the skills necessary to get the business going and be successful, they have the skills necessary to be CEO, they just don’t always know exactly what to do. So I spend a lot of time training CEOs and their management teams on how you implement a system to run the organization better.
Jim Schleckser 2:04
Interesting. And I think a lot of them are missing just that a system, right? They just they don’t have they sort of do stuff is the mentality, but they don’t know what stuff to do. So how do you get them from do stuff to exactly what they should be working on? Obviously, we use Theory of Constraints, the CEO project and the five hats and which I know you’ve adapted. But what’s the model that you use to help them focus?
Joel Trammell 2:27
Yeah, I find myself most of the time, going back to what I call two triangles of tension that I’ve found that kind of exist in every business, the first one kind of obvious to a lot of people, you have tension between the wants and needs of employees, the wants and needs of customers, and the wants and needs of shareholders. And, you know, my view is that to build a sustainable business, you have to keep all those interests, you know, aligned as best you can, and you’re going to make trade offs, but you’re always balancing. And I always tell my executive team, when we have a big decision to make, let’s stop for a second, let’s put on the employees hat as a group, think about how it’s gonna impact employees, let’s put on the customer hat as a group, let’s put on the shareholder hat as a group. And so that’s kind of the external tension that every CEO has to manage. And then internal to almost every business I’ve ever seen, is a tension between the sales group product, the product group, and the marketing group. And, you know, that’s an internal tension that has to be managed. And when you take a look at those kind of six fundamental areas, really the role of the CEO is managing the whitespace, and communication and coordination of all six of those areas all at the same time.
Jim Schleckser 3:43
Right? interest. So which is really your first book was called CEO, Tightrope, which is sort of what you’re applying here is that dynamic tension that you’re managing all the time? Yep. So how do you given the the lens of the various stakeholders and their interests which are not full, you know, when they’re aligned, they’re aligned when they’re not? They’re not? How do you make the decision about which one has supremacy? In this case? Who, which way? Am I going to go this time versus next time? Because and here’s why I’m asking, you know, my experiences, people say, Well, maybe I’m gonna be better CEO, get an MBA, I’m like, that’s not going to help. Because if it’s black and white, you can figure it out. It’s the gray stuff is where it’s always hard, which is exactly what you’re talking about. And they go well, how do I decide on the gray stuff? And I go, Well, that is not easy. That is not easy. So how do you, buddy give guidance in that area?
Joel Trammell 4:35
Yeah, so I think the issue for a lot of people is they have a team that they grew up on, right? Maybe your up grew up as a salesperson. And so your tendency very much is to balance unhealthily towards sales. Because you see kind of the CEO job, it’s just a big sales job, or you grew up as a product person, you think everything we just build a better product, data path, our door kind of concepts. And so I think it Data is about learning and thinking about being able to get in the shoes of those six different constituencies. And, you know, I think most people just never stop and pause and think they’re so busy running the business and making decisions that they don’t pause and think, hey, wait a minute, how are customers going to react to this price increase? We need to do it. Okay, I understand prices have gone up. But is there a good way to do it or a bad way to do it, they don’t think about that. They just justify Yeah, we got to do a price increase. And the line I use is I think people spend way too much time in business, thinking about what they want to do. And not near enough time thinking about how to execute it well.
Jim Schleckser 5:41
I have always said, I’d rather have a B class plan with a class execution than an A class plan with B class execution, right? It’s the same idea. So you’re given that you’re trying to get people to take a multifaceted view of the business. And yeah, sort of sit in the shoes of each role. organizational structures, the way they’re built, most accompanies, don’t encourage me to work outside my silo, right? I’m running an engineering, my excellence would be an engineering or sales or marketing or accounting, or whatever. So how do I build that muscle that allows me to step back and take a multifaceted view like this? The structure doesn’t create those people organically? So how do you create them over time? And I’m really talking to the, you know, the entrepreneurs leaders here, who say, Okay, gotta Joel, sounds great. How do I create people that think like this? I mean, you’ll say send them to me would be one option, but probably options too.
Joel Trammell 6:38
Well, I think it starts in the planning process. So you know, a lot of people do strategy and spend a lot of time thinking about strategy. But then boiling it down to what I, you know, think is going to make a difference, which I have a one page strategic plan that I teach everybody to produce, because if you can’t produce it on one page, your employees aren’t going to aren’t going to do anything with it. And so that process involves getting down to strategic objectives. These are things that we’re looking to three years out. And I just simply go through the question, what is the most important thing we’re doing for customers over the next two to three year period? What’s the most important thing we’re doing for shareholders over the next two to three? What’s the most important thing we’re doing for our employees? And you ask those six questions each area. And so that gives you balance. And then every time I set quarterly goals, I’m looking at those strategic objectives that are again balanced, and I’m saying, Okay, this quarter over the next 90 day period, what’s the most important thing we’re doing for customers? And so it kind of forces the organization to look at things from that perspective, then, of course, yeah, I want my sales guy to go sell stuff. Yeah. But at least he understands the bigger picture, and where he’s going to tie into all the other responsibilities of the other groups.
Jim Schleckser 7:52
You know, we had a member and she just forming an executive team Shockley, they never had one that’s pretty good sized company. She brought them together and said, Hey, let’s figure out just that, right? There longer term objectives, and tremendously disappointed by the level of thinking of the people. And it may be says the wrong people, but but also, they’ve never done this before. Right? So keep up their competency is extremely low in that, like the strategic conversation. So it feels to me like great questions, but it’s still going to take you a year or two, until people actually really start thinking like that and own it, and some will get there quicker than others. But, you know, how long have you seen it take from somebody to go to begin to think that way?
Joel Trammell 8:36
Yeah, I tell people, I think, you know, building an executive team from scratch is a 12 to 18 month process. It is not they hire the right people. And suddenly magic happens. You know, it’s just like a basketball team, you can have the best point guard in the best power forward, but they never played together. And they don’t, you know, their games don’t jab, it doesn’t work. And so I think it’s the same thing, I think, 1218 months, that’s kind of the timeframe you’re looking at, unfortunately, to build a solid executive team. Yeah,
Jim Schleckser 9:05
I in fact, I talked to her the other day. And I said, so you’ve had your second executive team meeting. It’s good now. Right? Which, obviously not right, we got another year plus to go and, and some of them may not make it right. Some, you know what I’ve experienced that some people can never get out of their silo, right? You try to invite them to that conversation that you talked about? Let’s think more broadly about the business. Let’s think about stakeholders that are not you. And they they cannot take the glasses off of engineering or accounting or they can’t elevate to that level. They just can’t do it. And how do you handle when you’ve got somebody on the executive team that you’re trying to elevate? You’re trying to get them strategic and they just continue to drop into their silo? You know, and sometimes accountants might be the most guilty of this are lawyers are, but they have a hard time pulling out. So how do you deal with that? Do you just not invite them or do you? How do you manage well,
Joel Trammell 9:56
I think it’s, you know, it’s Canada. A lot of people don’t think about what really isn’t executive, okay? I mean, we give somebody a VP titles that make him an executive, you know, to me that the two things that always said to be an executive for me, you have to pass two tests, you have to be comfortable that you can represent the organization as a whole to external constituents, that I can put you out in front of whatever audience and you can represent the the organization as a whole, not just the salesperson. And then the second thing is that you can make decisions that are relevant to your part of the organization without messing up other parts of the organization. And that’s without understanding how you fit into the bigger pitch. And if you can’t do those two things, you make an have a big salary and a big title, but you’re not an executive, you can’t play on the executive team.
Jim Schleckser 10:49
And so you limit who’s going to be on the executive team title doesn’t get you to the executive meeting. That’s your competence. Those things get you there, right.
Joel Trammell 10:57
That’s right. And I think it’s important for a lot of your CEOs, probably who are building teams, I got to the exercise of making people build out their org chart, but put their name in the box if they’re a CEO. But you know, if they’re really the executive for sales, if they really don’t have somebody, maybe they got somebody with a title, but they’re not really performing that role. You need to put your name in as the VP of sales, because you’re really performing that function. And it’s important for the organization to kind of understand who the executive is in each area. Only or and, and then okay,
Jim Schleckser 11:31
yeah, that makes sense. I’ve done the same thing. Yeah, I do the same thing. Let’s, let’s call it let’s call it what it is. Right? That’s right.
Joel Trammell 11:37
That’s right. Don’t confuse the organization by having a VP of sales that can’t make decisions for their area. Yeah, yeah.
Jim Schleckser 11:43
Well, the other way I’ve seen people use this as a go, I’m, I’m the VP of sales with the CEO title, so I can thump anybody I got a thump to get my agenda driven, right? Which is really unfair, you know, because how do you say no, and the CEO is in front of you? You’re I need this tomorrow, right? It’s,
Joel Trammell 11:59
yeah, it’s not ideal. You want to replace all those VPS with somebody better than you at the job, but you need to reflect it if that’s reality in your organization.
Jim Schleckser 12:08
So maybe a strategy and then let’s move over to hiring. So is strategic thinking teachable?
Joel Trammell 12:17
You know, that’s a, that’s a good question. You know, I’ve never been guy, I wouldn’t consider myself a strategy guy, per se, I had, in some of my organizations, I’ve had people on the team who formed that kind of Chief Strategy Officer role. And, and that was fine. Of course, one of my businesses I did with my wife, and she was the brains of the operation and then generate the IP and product vision. So, you know, really, I was taking what she gave me. So I don’t know, the CEO has to be the strategy expert in the organization, they certainly have to own the strategy once it’s created. But I think you can, you know, you can even conceivably have outside people who are providing a lot of input on the strategy. I think the tendency of a lot of CEOs is, again, spent way too much time on the strategy, and not near enough time on how we’re going to execute it. Well, yeah, it drives
Jim Schleckser 13:08
me crazy. When I talk to a leader, I’m like, Well, what are you working on? I’m working on the strategy. Really, like, what does that look like? I mean, working on the strategy is waking up taking a shower, before you get to work and you think about it in the shower, not you know, it’s not a day, right? You’re just sort of shifting that that lens, you know, moving to hiring, and we talked about sort of coming out of a functional role and so forth. But and I think it relates to the strategy thing, like, you don’t need to own strategy as a CEO, but you need to know a good one, when you see it. Right. You okay, that’s a good strategy. You know, I couldn’t have maybe come up with it. But that’s a good one. Same thing on people. So we have a lot of cases, particularly for entrepreneurs that came out of fill in the blank, blank, engineering, marketing, accounting, sales, and now they gotta hire somebody who’s not in their functional role, right. And I see this a lot of times when they’re trying to hire salespeople, and they’re not salespeople. And they go, how, Jim, how do I hire a salesperson, when I don’t even know what a good one looks like? And I think salespeople are particularly hard because they all look good in the interview if they’re any kind of decent, right? So how do you hire when it’s not your specialty?
Joel Trammell 14:17
So there, you know, several bases to that, that, you know, all have to kind of work together first. You know, if you’re building a growing company, hiring needs to be a continuous process. I’m always looking for people. I’m always trying to find people that fit in. And a lot of times, I’m going to need a power forward, but a small forward shows up and I need to grab him and figure out how to play ball with them because that’s the right guy available, especially when you’re a small organization, you just can’t get the exact piece when you need it. So that’s the first thing I’m always hiring and sometimes I’m going to have, you know, a little bit of a mismatch and have to make do but if I’ve got the right people, they’re going to be productive. Second thing I mean, my best story about hiring your talent
Jim Schleckser 15:03
Joel Trammell 15:04
Oh, absolutely. Well, just, if it let me, let me rephrase that, depending on what, what you’re hiring for most organizations when they’re hiring, or hiring somebody to do a job that the organization already knows how to do. Okay, you’re hiring the third developer, you’re hiring the second accountant, you’re hiring the whatever. In those cases, you want talent over experience, because it’s a lot easier to train a smart young person how you want something done, than to retrain somebody with experience that is mediocre. Yep. Okay. Now, if you’re trying to do something that the organization does not know how to do, right, does not have the capacity to do. I’ve never had a executive VP of sales. I probably want to find somebody that has experience meeting the executive VP of sales and tell them here are the goals. Now you go execute, because I don’t know anything about
Jim Schleckser 15:57
right you figure it out. So let’s go back to the how do I hire that person? If I don’t know a dang thing about sales?
Joel Trammell 16:03
Yes. So you know, I I bungled in and it’s kind of the the fundamental question here is How do you identify an expert? And it’s hard, but there are queues? So I did once I did one year, I did 252 interviews, in one year to hire 100 people. Jim, Jim’s heard this story.
Jim Schleckser 16:23
I haven’t, I was gonna ask about it later. But let’s dig into it now. So you do when you were the CEO of net QoS, you interviewed every single candidate to come into that company, every single one? Every single one? Why wouldn’t? I’ll be the really extreme other side? What an incredible waste of your time. Why did you do that? Now you can respond to that I know, you know, I know that’s not the case.
Joel Trammell 16:46
Because I couldn’t find anything else that was more important. If I get the right team, everything else becomes easier. I always wanted to be the coach of the Olympic basketball team when they had magic and Jordan and bird. Because you know, your role, the best five players in the world out there, they get a little tired, you call timeout, your old the next five best players in the world, I can be a pretty mediocre coach and have a lot of success with that.
Jim Schleckser 17:10
Here’s, here’s the plan. Guys go out there and play questions. Yeah,
Joel Trammell 17:16
exactly. Exactly. It’s, you know, but so many organizations spend, you know, 2% of their time recruiting, and then they spend 75% of their time managing their recruiting mistakes. And that’s exactly what you don’t want to do. So part of this process, too. If you’re, you know, constantly hiring, you got to be willing to admit your mistakes and move on quickly, to you’re gonna make some mistakes. I mean, yeah, I did turn 52 interviews, and I got pretty good at it. But I still made some mistakes. But you’ve got to be able to identify those mistakes and have a management system in place that gives those people opportunities to perform, but if they don’t perform, move on, but counter to the question.
Jim Schleckser 17:58
I think the fact that you had so many cycles, you did get really good at it. So you go, why would I take the guy who has 200 500 600 cycles on doing this and hand it to somebody who it’s the third one they’ve ever done? What’s the probability of good outcome between those two people? Right?
Joel Trammell 18:14
Yeah, and most managers, even very experienced managers, you think about it, they don’t hire a lot of people during their career, even though you could you could run very large organizations, and have very limited 1020 30 hires and your entire career. And so yeah, I got pretty good at it. And somebody I think that might be the core point, too is, somebody in the organization needs to be good at it, and set the bar for quality for that organization, does this person meet the quality bar for our organization? And so it was me and my case? Could it be someone else in your organization? Sure, it could be an HR person or somebody who has a lot of experience hiring, but most people don’t, if you leave it to your managers, they will make a lot of bad hiring decisions.
Jim Schleckser 18:59
So given that you weren’t interviewing for the technical matter, what were you interviewing for?
Joel Trammell 19:05
Yeah, so I was interviewing for exceptionalism is the way I would put it. So the story I like to tell we did, I was doing all these interviews, and usually I prepared a little bit at least reviewed the resume and, and kind of thought up some things beforehand that I wanted to dig in on. But I remember my HR guy shows up at the door with a new candidate. And I had been back to back to back and I’m like, I don’t even know what this person is interviewing for. You know, it’s I look at it, but I go you know, what are you here for basically, it was funny because she was a very one of these people who was very detail oriented, prepared very, you know, thoroughly for the interview was very prim and proper. And she was a little startled by that, of course, you know, she’s like, I’m interviewing for the PR position. Okay. At that point, my career I had never hired a person that was just going to do public relations. So I look at her and I go, I’ve never heard anybody to do public relations, what makes a good PR person. Just throw it out there, she spent the next three to five minutes, going from top of the, you know, highest level to specific technique she thought would apply to our company and our industry, and what she was going to do in the first 3060 days. And, you know, at that point she was hired, because she had clearly laid out that she understood deeply what a PR person was going to do in an organization. And people who are really good at something, they don’t just show up at work and do that. They spend all their cycles thinking about it. Right. And, you know, I tell the story of playing golf with Tom Watson got an opportunity to play golf with with Watson. private jet company wanted my business, they said, hey, we’ll fly you to Dallas. Will, you’ll play six holes with Tom Watson will fly you back you in? Okay. It was my hobby.
Jim Schleckser 21:04
Let me think about it.
Joel Trammell 21:07
So we, we fly out there and we go into the hangar. And there’s Tom Watson press. And you know, I’m a tennis guy by by career, but I hit the golf, I like golf. And so there’s Tom Watson, and he starts telling golf stories. And we get the van and Tom wants to tell and golf stores, we go out on the driving range, Tom wants to talk about golf, we go play six holes, Tom Watson’s talking about golf, we go back and have dinner, Watson’s telling golf stories to display and I’m wondering if this man knows anything about anything other than golf. And then of course, it hits me, you don’t get to be the best golfer in the world. If you spend your time thinking about a lot of other things. Yeah. It’s, you know, back to your sales gap question. You know, you ask a sales guy, a mediocre sales guy. What they’re gonna do, and they will give you some answer that sounds kinda like, well, you know, I just don’t take no for an answer. I beat the phones, I have strong determination. I’ve never failed in any job. I’ve had that stuff. You know what a good sales guy says something that sounds much more thoughtful. And, and exceptional. He says, I’ve looked at your industry, I think these are the three Lighthouse customers that if we get those three customers, they’ll knock down the other. So in the first 30 days, my sole mission is to get meetings with this executive at this company, this executive at this company, this executive at this company, here’s how I’m gonna go about doing that, you know, and they they clearly have thought about. And that’s what experts sound like. Another thing is experts will say, I don’t know, the people who are pretending will never use those words.
Jim Schleckser 22:43
Interesting. I’ve stolen one of your ideas and interviewing I say, when you ask a C player, and it’s your interview question you go, how will I know you’re doing a great job. And C player goes, well, I’m going to show up on time, I’m gonna work really hard, and you know, my desk will stay neat, and you’ll absolutely non applicable to the job. And a player goes, well, I suppose you’re gonna want to look at the rate of calls, how my funnel grows, my close ratio, if I’m clear in a million dollars a quarter if I’m not doing that I’m probably below the curve, but full transparent accountability to performance by when I turned that in a little to a joke. I go great. Ask the question and then go, like make a note of that, because that’s how I’m going to measure you if I hired you. Right. But I think it’s a fundamental difference, the willingness to be accounted for transparently, I think that’s a very fundamental ABC kind of gradation. interview question.
Joel Trammell 23:40
Yeah. And I thought about that, yeah. And they thought about their profession. They treat it as a profession. They don’t treat it as just, oh, this is the job that’s open, and it’s close to my house and probably pays well,
Jim Schleckser 23:52
you look for exceptionalism in another area when you’re interviewing. In other words, I wrote an article a while ago about hiring high level athletes, right? So college level, or even semi professional, that’s unlikely, but you know, high level athletes have a certain discipline, focus, commitment, you know, they’re willing to do the work. They, you know, I saw a story about like a college wrestler. This dude was insane, man, he woke up at six o’clock in the morning, he lifted weights, he went to a couple classes, he did work out a couple more classes, you know, then wrestling practice, then homework, then went to bed and did it again. For four years. I’m like, you want to hire that guy? Right? I mean, no amount of work is gonna scare him. So I don’t know, what do you think about exceptionalism in other areas? I picked that in athletics, but there are other areas too.
Joel Trammell 24:42
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It shows up. I mean, you know, for software developers, they you know, have a project err on the side they’re writing the next great operating system or they want some, you know, robotics contest or, or they’re doing something along those lines. Yeah, wait for a while because you know, University of Texas, of course, and I mean, Austin, famous for its swim program, I would occasionally see these resumes that you know, and the other section at the very bottom would say something like, you know, set the American record and the 200 meter breaststroke or something, you know, and you think about that for a minute you go, you know, to set the American record and something like that. It’s been contested for 100 years, and they’re, you know, 10s of 1000s of people. That meant not only did you have some talent, but that meant you for like 10 years, woke up every morning at 5am You know, jumped in a cold pool swim for two hours. If you have any talent or skills whatsoever, I can probably make you successful in my organization. And so yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, the I’m a I’m a big fan, maybe because it’s what I did, but the individual sports particularly where you’re out there on your own, and there’s no place to hide our, you know, show a lot of the kind of creative initiative that you want employees
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